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Relaxation of Entry Rules ?
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IainM
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Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Posts: 383
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:02 pm    Post subject: Relaxation of Entry Rules ? Reply with quote

All Exact Scale rules qualify entry by requiring that the entrant is also the builder.
We are seeing many more instances of skippers buying completed boats from other modellers and, under current rules, they are barred from entering their purchase in any of the Exact Scale class competitions.

My question is therefore ... should there be a relaxation of rules, with accompanying changes to the judging criteria.
Do you believe that this would attract more entrants Question

What are your views please Question

Iain [/b]
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Eddy Matthews
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Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Posts: 149
Location: Pickering, North Yorkshire

PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I don't see a problem with entering a model built by someone else, as long as the builder is given credit.

We all know that models change hands, and I don't see that they should then be barred because the original builder no longer owns the model.

I'm sure there will be people who say that this leaves it open to those with more money to win trophies, but to me, the prize is awarded to the model, NOT to the current owner.
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Andrew



Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Posts: 86
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it would be appropriate to relax these rules to encourage more entries but I also agree with Eddy that the original builder must be given credit. Many modellers nowadays buy partially built models and then modify them or alter them to look the way they want them to and I don't think that they should be barred from entering the Exact Scale class. When I used to enter my Morgan (many years ago) in Concours d'Elegance shows it was the way the car was prepared and presented that counted and I feel this should be the same. As Eddy says it's the boat that's the winner and not who owns it.

Andrew
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IainM
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Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Posts: 383
Location: Edinburgh

PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a thought Eddy.
Perhaps we should change the wording of awards to reflect the "model owned by" rather than the "owner sailing".

I rather think there would have to be some type of award in each class for a 'Builders Trophy' simply to recognise the skills in building.
Having said all this, I'm not certain that it would do much to increase the number of participants but it could offer fairer competition.

Ho hum .......
Food for thought perhaps Smile

Iain
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Bill Noon



Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Posts: 93
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have to disagree with you guys on this one...
I've always assumed that it was the very fact you 'did' build the boat that qualified you to enter it.
Exceptions might be entry into steering & docking, nomination or perhaps the tug towing, the point in these other disciplines is that its your 'control' of the boat that is being judged....not the boat. Whereas in the exact scale etc, its your rendition of that particular boat that sits in judgement.

Exact scale, kit, semi kit, stand off....
Ive seen boats from either class entered into the others which hardly encourages less adept builders to get involved does it? What chance a man trying his best when an another entrant can buy a boat of exact scale pedigree, done to the highest standard and then enters it into 'stand-off? He has in effect 'bought' a win in that class...no grey areas about it!

The lines are also smudged quite a bit with scratch and semi kit, is scratch intended to encompass the whole boat? So a guy builds a hull and then festoons it with all manner of goodies 'off the shelf', another builder may buy a hull only and go on to fashion everything else on board short of bulbs, wire, motors and batteries but he cant enter scratch even though he may have scratch built much more of his offering than the previous fellow.

Try this on for an idea;
Three classes....A, B, and C.
A for 'expert' or 'advanced' builders.
B for average for intermediate.
C for more 'stand off' models.

Someone 'pot hunting' in the lower classes would be quickly spotted, good builders are good builders whatever they build, so it matters little if its hull only, a kit or anything in between. I would imagine that the better builders would also have more kudos were they to win over their peers, rather than some other chap who is less adept at building.
For too long Ive heard people say that theres little point in entering, the same boats or buidler win year after year, I think the simple A-B-C might go some way to alleviate that feeling and encourage others to enter boats in a class they feel in with a chance in.
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ghost in the shell



Joined: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 17
Location: stoke on trent, England

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

at the end of the day, I agree with Andrew.

After all, judges like to see a well presented vessel, and nowadays are probably none too fussy about who built her and sent her down the slipway.

If a model is second hand, inherited from a family member, or a comissioned build, then it is curteous to mention this.

There are people out there who buy a model, second hand or commissioned and entered it as THEIR BOAT, this is somewhat dishonerable and disrespectful to the person who built the model!
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Liz G



Joined: 25 Feb 2007
Posts: 14
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh Dear dearie me, now I have to speak up. If anyone could enter a model stating who the builder was how do they prove that the model was built by same, ie in Scratch built rules states that if a fiberglass hull is made you may have to prove with documentation, plans and plug for hull that you scratch built the hull etc. As in past years (decades ago) some competitions in England did not fuss who built the boat and the result was cheque book modelling, for those of you who do not know about cheque book modelling it is a case of who has most money to buy high standard built models went away with the trophies. Which in my view devalues the skill of the model maker who worked hard for years building a model.
If you have not built the model there are still competitions that you can enter. After all the statment that Bill made is true "building of the boat qualifies you to enter" and yes you are being presented with a trophy because you have the skill to build the model to a certain standard, not because you own it.
Sorry but it had to be said.
Liz.
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Bill Noon



Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Posts: 93
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still think that.....

Three classes....A, B, and C.
A for 'expert' or 'advanced' builders.
B for average for intermediate.
C for more 'stand off' models.

As an option, it would encourage new builds from across the board and not just those who can either afford a new kit each year, as well as giving less able builders a fighting chance in their respective classes.

Making no difference whether it came as a box of wood with some fittings, a sourced hull and scratch built fittings, or a stand off type built from a free magazine plan. Its the standard of building and the builders representation of the boat thats on show.....not the contents of his retirement fund.
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JimG



Joined: 19 Feb 2007
Posts: 21
Location: Dundee

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill Noon wrote:

Three classes....A, B, and C.
A for 'expert' or 'advanced' builders.
B for average for intermediate.
C for more 'stand off' models.

As an option, it would encourage new builds from across the board and not just those who can either afford a new kit each year, as well as giving less able builders a fighting chance in their respective classes.

Making no difference whether it came as a box of wood with some fittings, a sourced hull and scratch built fittings, or a stand off type built from a free magazine plan. Its the standard of building and the builders representation of the boat thats on show.....not the contents of his retirement fund.


The problem with this sort of classification is policing it. Who decides which class the boat goes in? If you want to put the boat in class B and the owner insists they want it in class C who has the final say? Probably the builder who can remove the boat if they don't get their own way.

When does a boat move up a class? After it wins in the class it had been entered in? Would need good records kept and available on the day to check. What about entries at club regattas, should wins in these count towards moving up a class? Again needs a lot of record keeping.

Also why should anyone need to build a new boat each year? The only thing to stop a boat being re-entered is if it won the previous year. If it's the same person winning each year then they must be a very good modeler with several models built to a high standard. If your model doesn't win anything then improve it, don't blame others.

The present rules work well and don't need much changing. Many members don't enter contests because they are not interested or don't believe that their models are good enough, even when they are.
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Liz G



Joined: 25 Feb 2007
Posts: 14
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very true Jim, A lot of record keeping and you can only win the trophy once with the same model but if you win 2nd or 3rd then there is nothing stopping you entering the same competition with the same boat again.
Liz. Rolling Eyes
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Max Power



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 101
Location: South Lanarkshire

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:09 pm    Post subject: Relaxation of rules? Reply with quote

I must be missing something here; the classes you are talking about are listed in this web site as "BUILD COMPETITIONS"! Shocked The only person who can be given any credit in a BUILD competition is the person who did the building Exclamation
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Bill Noon



Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Posts: 93
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with this sort of classification is policing it.
Well policing any sort of comp has its probs, but if you have zero entrants theres little point in the comp at all.

When does a boat move up a class?
Why would the boat move anywhere?
Its the builders skill in producing the boat that being judged in that particular class, 'pot hunters' should be spotted by judges on the day with ease surely?

Also why should anyone need to build a new boat each year?
The same applies as at present, if its won already then its not eligible for the comp next year, I thought we were talking about 'encouraging' new entrants onto the tables rather than just 'entries' on to the table...so to speak

The present rules work well and don't need much changing. Many members don't enter contests because they are not interested or don't believe that their models are good enough, even when they are.
If the rules worked well, then more would be entering, perhaps thinking that they were at least in with a chance in some sort of class?

Jeeeeez Jim....I've seen guys just put the boat back in the car when your 'Parats' entered in the S&D Razz But thats a different story!

Lack of interest is endemic across the board in the model boat game, a chat with any members of clubs up & down the country will show that most have members who neither sail, build or otherwise participate much other than to just enjoy the company at the club.

How to deal with that? I have no idea, it is a hobby after all, not national service, am I alone in thinking that anything designed to encourage more life into the model boat scene is to be encouraged?

Sailing yachts, whacking fast electrics across the pond, for me...tug towing, or simply enjoying the progress of a new build are exactly the reasons why we join model boat clubs in the first place, and I would support any and all efforts that encourage life in our clubs. it just seems that we pick up a few 'passengers' along the way these days.
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Norry Mason



Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 132
Location: Linwood, Paisley...

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not have a section for Scratch Built Boatswhich are built on a Commercially produced GRP Hull...It could be called Semi Scratch Built...
It was said earlier...A modeller could buy a Grp hull from a manufacturer & then go & produce every other part of the boat from scratch...
There is one boat entering the scene this year where the builder has made his own prop shafts, props, kort nozzles, bow thruster,in fact everything except the electrcs & hull have been scratch built...
Now there is a build worth rewarding the builder for his efforts...

...Regards...Norry...
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Eddy Matthews
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Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Posts: 149
Location: Pickering, North Yorkshire

PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you've all unwittingly hit on the major problem - At least as far as I'm concerned. Far too many rules and regulations!

If someone builds a superb model using a commercially produced hull is it scratch built? If someone uses commercially available fittings, is it scratch built? Where do you draw the line? If someone uses a commercial hull or fittings (or whatever else), what category does it go into? It's not semi scale, and it's not a kit..... So what is it?

I'm afraid thats the main reason I won't enter any of my models into these competitions.... Too many damned rules! And don't even get me started on the rivet counters out there!!

I have no idea what the solution is, but I think it's something that needs serious consideration - We need simplification, NOT more complications!

I've ducked now waiting for the flak that will inevetably (sp?) come! But seriously, think about it please....
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Liz G



Joined: 25 Feb 2007
Posts: 14
Location: Glasgow

PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's been a while since I've been on and I have just read a suggestion from Norry that Scratch built boats built on a commercial hull could enter a class called Semi Scratch Built. Oops the class already exists, some clubs call it Semi Kit others Semi Scratch built and the general rules are that it is a commercial hull and you build from the deck up and any commercial fittings bought to fit out the superstructure and deck should be detailed on the entry form.
Could I suggest that members of the forum and guests please read the general competition rules and classes of competitions before hand.

Liz. Rolling Eyes
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